Due to illness, there will be NO class this Wed. Please use this time to work on your papers - they are due next class, March 11.
Also, for this week's blog/log posting, please discuss your impressions of the story, "Man and Wife" by Katie Chase. How does this story compare with more extreme events in the news, such as in Bountiful, B.C.? How do society and even family pressure young people to marry? In North America, with a 50% divorce rate, would you say parental involvement in a choice of partner might be a good thing? In some cultures, arranged marriage is the norm -- do you think this might lead to a higher rate of success, or does it change the whole idea of marriage for you? We will discuss this more in class next week.
Please continue to post on last week's class in the blog (below). See you next week. Sorry for any inconvenience.
15 comments:
This week’s story Man and Wife by Katie Chase was very hard for me to read. All I kept thinking about the whole time I read was how sad it was that the poor little girl lost out on a childhood. As I was reading the story, I absolutely kept on thinking of all those news stories about the poor girls in the communes who are forced into arranged marriages at a young age. The whole concept of these relationships disturbs me in two ways; firstly because of how children are robbed of their childhood, and secondly because of how they have no influence in creating their own future.
I am not sure how I feel about people of adult age having arraigned marriages either. It is hard for me to judge the practice because I know that arraigned marriages are largely cultural, and as someone who has grown up in a society that emphasises the individual, I know that I would absolutely refuse to allow my parents to make the decision of whom I am going to marry for me. That is not to say that I do not value my parent’s opinion reagrding the guys that I date; it just means that mine is the final word. However, someone could also question if not marrying someone because their parents do not approve, or the prospective groom having to ask his bride’s father for permission to marry her is just a modern or westernized version of the arraigned marriage practice. If you really think about it, if two people refrained from marriage because the father or parents did not approve, is it really much different than the parents actually picking out the future partner themselves? I think that it is a very interesting question; one that deserves to be discussed. One thing that I do know is that I strongly believe that the whole idea of arraigning marriages between young children and older partners is not right and should not, under any circumstances, be condoned.
My daughter is nearly nine, and the thought that she would be ready to be a partner for anybody is laughable. I become furious when thinking of children bought to be someone’s wife. In the story Mary Ellen’s mother tells her that she will be her husbands’, she will be owned. That really is the issue isn’t it. As Children are we owned? Are we property of our parents and then property of our partners? Are we property of society, to be pressured into operating in a particular way? I believe that it is my privilege (Well most of the time), to help my children be adults and yes it happens to be in this social setting and culture but I do not own them. This can be a difficult concept. Of course I have to set boundaries for them and teach them to make wise decisions but no matter how much I will try to hang on, I do not own them and don’t want them ever to think that they are own-able. Choosing to be someone’s partner or parent for that matter is different. I don’t really think that we are able to make that full decision until we are older. Mary Ellen in the story understands marriage to be about ownership, money and contracts. A little girl expected to be able to grow up in a marriage and expected that now at the ripe age of eighteen she is to ‘feel’ something. No clearly in her society it is expected that marriage is for need, power and monetary security and she has learned that well. Loneliness along with other emotional aspects of a fulfilling marriage seems to be an expected price. I have empathy for Mr. Middleton as well, He is as a successful businessman expected and I’m sure feels pressure, to take a wife. By choosing one so young He is able to help create what He wants but people as I said are not possessions. They may learn what they are expected to do and may operate in the forum they are given but cannot be forced to emotionally engage. Personality and thoughts cannot be owned and never have been able to be. Ultimately, if people could OWN and totally create a person the result would be never completely satisfying. Never being completely satisfied with the monster we create. Really isn’t that what “Frankenstein” is about?
I was recently speaking with a friend about her arranged marriage. It brought up interesting ideas for me. I’m not sure that anyone culture has got marriage completely right. Western European culture had visible evidence that our ideas of marriage isn’t completely right, it’s called divorce. However, just because there are divorces doesn’t necessarily mean that there shouldn’t be. Some marriages dissolve due to extreme abuse, or intolerable situations for children etc. It also doesn’t mean that cultures that sell their children or arrange marriages have it right either they just might not have the visible evidence that divorce provides. For this issue there is often passionate debate. For me I would rather choose to have the freedom to make my own decisions. I have felt the devastation of an intolerable situation but was not completely trapped. I don’t want to be trapped in a situation, I want to choose everyday to be a part of a marriage that I and a partner commit to. That being said I appreciate what my friend’s parents are trying to provide for her and can see she has far more freedom as well as age, than the child in the reading.
In my culture arranged marriage is one of the customs that people have been following for a long time. In fact this is how my grandparents met and had 7 children. In their generation, there wasn’t much say in what they did. You had to do everything for your family and had to accept everything they told you to do. A woman’s education wasn’t valued so they had to stay home and do duties around the house, raise children and act as housewives. Everyone had such a great responsibility back then at a younger age which made them have to be more responsible. By improving their lifestyle people would get married at an earlier age.
I once asked my grandmother how she could marry and live with someone she barely knew. She smiled at me and laughed and said “ love grows when you live with someone for a long time.” I couldn’t imagine what my grandmother went through at such an early age having to take care of her husband and surrender herself at this time and age.
In today’s society we are more educated and have many more privileges and options. Our lifestyle has changed a great deal and I believe that arranged marriages are unacceptable because we have learned to express individual feelings, emotions. We have won certain freedoms and rights. How can arranged marriages consider what we have become today? I personally believe that I cannot be a part of an arranged marriage because my life is given to me to create and I deserve not to sacrifice my life for parental approval. Today, some children still have to go through this old fashioned way of marriage. I feel horrible that they have to experience this. Marriage should happen when two people meet and have feelings for each other and eventually fall in love together. They should be able to make their own decisions and be willing to spend the rest of their lives together. Unlike my grandmother I am very fortunate that I can choose the person I love and marry based on my feelings and how my heart feels.
I do not think parental involvement in a choice of partner is a good think. I would think that would lead to more divorces, if you are only in the marriage for your parents, and not because you want to be there, then what is motivating you to work hard at it. I think that it is important to date/marry someone your parents approve of, if you wish to maintain a close relationship with them. I know I could never date anyone my parents disliked because their opinion matters to me, but I would never want them to choose a partner for me either.
I also think another reason parental involvement in a choice of partner is a bad thing because what about parents who have made poor choices in their relationships in the past. Sure one could argue that they may have learned from the past, but I wouldn’t want a whole bunch of divorced people (as it is half of the population who were married) giving out marital advice on picking partners. There is something to be said for your own choice, and then you can have nobody to blame if it isn’t successful.
There is a saying where the "parents always knows what's best" for their child but in this scenario I do not believe it is the case. By having arranged marriages, the parents take away the child's right to create and fulfill their own destiny and sets a path for them since birth. I realize that arranged marriages are custom in some cultures so I feel very grateful that I'm allowed to choose who I want to marry. It is the child who must spend the rest of their life with the partner their parents choose not the parents themselves so even if the parents absolutely adore the partner, the final decision should come down to the child since it is their life that is directly affected. Arranged marriages seem to almost make the child an object as opposed to a human being, because the child is "exchanged" for the benefit of the parents.
Even with a high divorce rate now, I believe that with arranged marriages that rate would increase even more because the marriage wasn't done through love but as a transaction. I believe that when you get married it is because you love one another, but if arranged marriages were to become the norm my view on marriages would change where investing in their child is the means to gaining the benefits from the partner as the end. In "The Man and Wife" Mary Ellen was to be married at such a young age, and at that age, the child likely doesn't know what love is and because of the marriage may never know what love is.
The story “Man and Wife” reminds me of the old traditional way of arranged marriages in China. Parents from both sides would meet, discuss, and settle with an agreement, then finally let the kids meet. In most cases though parents would want their children to marry someone whose family is better off than theirs. Similar with what happened to Mary Ellen in the story, the male would come with his parents and they would observe how the female move about. From that they could learn more about the female’s character.
Perhaps it is the western open culture that lead Mary Ellen’s character to become as is, the way in which she played with her Barbies and the positions she left them while they “slept”. I did not understand this much when I was nine years old. I don’t think I was even allowed to come close to these things back home. As mentioned in the story, she’s seen too many such scenes at a young age that she might have misinterpreted what love really is, because after all she is just a kid. How could one possibly feel what love really is just by watching movies? Because I know that I could not feel and relate unless if I have been through the same experience. On the other hand, Mary Ellen’s dad appeared to be very selfish. He is not only taking away Mary Ellen’s freedom and let her enjoy her childhood, but also taking her as something monetary that he could use to get out of debt. He brought the good news home yet never really told Mary Ellen the reason behind the decision. It wasn’t much of a choice for Mary Ellen, it was a fact that she had to accept. If later she had not found out about the truth her decision of running away might have stayed the same. It is so sick to imagine a nine years old living with a man that looks older than your dad. Never mind the fact that a nine-year old is just simply both mentally and physically unprepared for a love relationship.
I am glad the society is in a better place nowadays we can choose our own destiny, and most of us would agree that in a relationship feelings are more important than possessions.
Let me start by saying that I am not at all for arranged marriages. That being said, I am not totally against them based on the fact that my culture does not make use of them.
However, I do respect the idea of an arranged marriage in today’s context in a way. Now before you stat ripping me apart for having said this... hear me out!
Back home I have a friend whose family emigrated from Iraq. Until moving out to the west coast, they were pretty well the only people from Iraq I had ever met or encountered. The oldest son in the family had a marriage arranged for him, but was given the option of following threw with it or not. He opted not to marry the girl that he was arranged to wed, but the whole idea kind of made me respect the tradition a little more then I had in the past. To me this is a tradition that is highly respectable in the sense that it’s an effort to ensure that the family is taken care of, and drives home the point that family is priority number one.
I also understand that for every one story of arranged marriages that works out for the best interest of everyone involved, there are probably hundreds that don’t. And again, I will stop short of singing their praises based on this fact. But I think that the attempt to carry on a tradition for the sake of a culture is something to be respected.
Angie wrote:
March 10, 2009
Man and Wife really made me think of where we draw the lines of what is ethically and morally right or wrong. Also who is in control of dictating and deciding what is right and wrong. It made me think of how this could influence our decisions as an individual, a member of a certain community, and as a larger society. Those within Bountiful and other polygamist communities consider polygamy and marriages at ages as young as 13 normal because that is what they have been raised to believe. I found it interesting last week there were documentaries on Bountiful and I learned a great deal that corresponded with Man and Wife. As a member outside of these communities I found it shocking that girls were married as young as 12 around the age of the girl in the story. I cannot imagine being almost auctioned off by my parents to a man much older than myself at that age. I still considered boys my own age repulsive and I wasn’t even thinking about sex until I was fortunate enough to have a sexual education course from grade 4-12. I think I would have reacted like many of the girls who “cried until left alone” (57) because at that age I think sex would be scary and confusing. This is complicated since the average age children are having sex today is around 13 and I think that while their bodies may be physically mature they aren’t mentally mature enough to deal with it emotionally. Reading this made me feel very fortunate for the freedoms I have experienced in my life compared to the isolation of the main character. She didn’t have a choice who she married and her education was cut off at grade 4. Even her sexual education was covered in a short conversation with her mother before her wedding in a hidden and taboo book that explained very little. Clearly she wasn’t given the education to choose what happens with her body, mind, or future. I agree she was fortunate to have a husband who let her further her education to eventually take over the company; however, many other women like her mother must have remained uneducated and left with little knowledge, resources, or choices which increased their isolation. In the documentary the high school daughters of Bountiful were asked what they were reading and they were only reading the bible and books about their specific religious teachings. I also learned they were trafficking child brides to Canada to get married underage and then brought back to the US because Canada isn’t aggressively prosecuting. I think it was section 153 states that anyone under 18 who is under the authority of someone who abuses these positions of power is sexually exploiting these children. These religious leaders and members have abused this authority by performing these marriage services and entering into marriages with girls at young ages. They say it is a losing battle charging them because polygamy can be defended on religious grounds. Their religious rights are outside the line drawn in the sand by authorities and the law. I found it shocking that one member actually compared these polygamist and underage marriages to the rights of gay and lesbian marriages in Canada. These are adult consensual relationships and according to the law anyone who is under the age of 16 is considered a child and cannot choose on their own to have a consensual relationship and it is rape. The line is being drawn between the “spiritual marriages” and charging for child abuse. For these communities don’t seem to recognize that children cannot legally make decisions on their own. When asked the teenage daughters and adults said that if a girl wanted to get married at 13 it was her choice. It is interesting that they claim these girls have a choice since their educational resources are cut short and they are taught at an early age marriage and having children is their chosen role in their community and that is their way to reach spiritual fulfillment. That they have to “stay sweet” and do as they are told. This opened my eyes and made me wonder where my ethical and moral lines are drawn in the sand as I was raised outside of these communities and as I tried to put myself in the shoes of this grade 4 girl. I did find it interesting that she considered herself an investment for her parents and I really wonder what she will do with her parents as she waits for her husband to die. I wonder if she will choose to have children and how will she choose to raise them? Would we consider the same solutions with our different background knowledge?
I’m not going to lie, I never read the story this week. I have way too many things to do for other courses and things all seem to come at me the one time. But on the topic of arranged marriages, well that’s a big one. Personally I know my parents always know what is right for me but I don’t really think they can make the decision to choose whom they would want me to marry. To think of my mom picking someone I would spend the rest of my life with scares the hell out of me; she has never liked any of my girlfriends and always wanted me to go after girls I never liked at all.
It is a cultural thing but needs to be respected, it might work for them but it would never for me. My parents don’t really know what I want in terms of who I would choose to spend the rest of life with and have children. Personally I think a big part of my life is finding someone I want to spend my life with not just having one picked for me.
I have to say.. there were multiple times throughout reading this story that I had to stop and think about what I had just read, and whether I had read it correctly or not. Even though it was just a story, I felt fear for the little girl. I cannot imagine being 9 years old and being taken as a wife. Those were some of the best days of my childhood! Those were the days of playing California kickball in the cult de sac and riding up and down the street on our bikes until we were called inside because it was getting too dark out.. but marriage?? Marriage calls for maturity, responsibility, and companionship – do those things exist in a child? Can they be instilled into a child as the mother in the story attempted to do? Even though one could try, I think just the thought is horrifying. There is nothing one can do to substitute taking away one’s childhood. Those years one spends as a child are years you can never get back, and years that should be spent enjoying the things that children do best – engaging in carefree play and socializing with friends of similar age.
Furthermore, to have my parents pick out the man I was going to spend the rest of my life with? And for them to tell me, “you’ll belong to him”? Just the thought scares me! Even though our parents may be older and consider themselves more wise and knowledgeable about the world, to have them pick out my future husband? Umm, no! However, like some other people have mentioned, even though I respect the opinions of my parents and family, I do not think it should be their choice to choose who I am to marry. Even though I think my mom (a single parent) knows me fairly well at times, finding the love of your life requires finding a connection with somebody, and I don’t see how anybody other than oneself is capable of doing so. However, our culture is just one of many in our world, and we have to respect the ways of other cultures if we can expect them to do the same to us.
After reading this story, I felt sort of disturbed with the concept of this old man getting married to the very young girl. The awkward part was the fact that Marry Ellen’s parents were very cool about the situation and in that society it seemed very normal for this event to take place. Like Jessica I had to read some parts a couple of times just because I was so disturbed of how a grown man could even think of marrying a little girl.
Presently I think in our society, there is less pressure for women to get married at a young age (ie 18 or 19 year of age) because of women being a lot more independent and much more career oriented. Also I feel that women’s rights have come a long way over the last decade and we are considered more equivalent to men. There are still a few things such as not getting the same salary as men but that a whole another issue. Being raised in an Indo-Canadian family, there is still pressure to get married after I complete school and have my career on track but at the same time I feel that society in general pressures young girls to get married before the age of thirty. For me personally, my parents also expect me to get married around the age of 24 or 25. But I am not sure if that is going to happen unless I find the right guy and more importantly finish school.
In our culture, arranged marriage was the norm especially for my parents’ generation and of course prior to those generations as well. I am not totally against arranged marriages since my parents got arranged marriage as well and they are extremely happy and love each other very much. However, in many families this is not the case and in Indo-Canadian families, it is very unlikely that one would hear of a couple getting divorced (especially prior to my parents’ generation) even if things are not working out. This is because in our society, people always think of what other relatives/friends or people in general are going to say. As a result, no matter what happens, you have to make it work. However in this generation, things have changed a lot. For one thing many people choose who they are going to marry and the divorce rate has definitely increased. I would not say it is because of “love marriage” but I think it is because of the fact that woman have more rights and freedom. In addition, I feel that people seem to give up more easily on their marriages as well.
I do not agree that people should be arranged to marry someone they have never met before. I think that kind of involvement in someone's life is not healthy! I understand that in some cultures this is custom and has worked for many, many years, but I personally just do not know how I would be able to cope with having that kind of an arrangment. I believe in finding and experiencing love (and therefore marriage) as a personal encounter that varies from person to person.
What if you aren't attracted to the person? There are many more questions like this one I'm sure, but I know for myself, I feel lucky to not have to have an arranged marriage and be able to freely chose who I wish to spend the rest of my life with. That decision is a HUGE choice and yes some family involvement would be beneficial but not to the extent to actually choosing the person your family wants you to spend the rest of your life with. Where's the fate in that?
I recognize that times have changed, the divorce rates are astronomical and people are not getting married until later on but arranged marriages still occur. On the divorce side of things, I feel like as a young person who wants to get married one day and be married for the rest of my life, the divorce rates are bascially telling me I'm destined to fail. The scares me because my goal is not get divorced (I would if I had to)and only be married once, but those numbers tell me differently.
I just noticed that everyone else did make a blog posting for this day (even though there was no class), which puts the very shrunken-down discussion we had on “Man and Wife” into perspective. I have no idea how I missed this, as you clearly say in your post that we are to discuss, but what can you do I guess. Below are my thoughts on the story, which I’ll post under March 4 as well.
On a purely surface level, the story was very depressing. I gather it was written about period which has since passed, like maybe the 20’s or something along those lines. Even so, even if it is socially acceptable if rare for a girl of 9 to marry, the pedophilia vibes from her husband-to-be made the story almost un-stomachable, especially since it was pretty much written from the girl’s point of view. The only emotion in the story more powerful than this girl’s confusion and fear at her future is her creepy betrothed totally inappropriate desire. The way he wanted to watch her play with the barbies, the fact that the visits were a secret from the parents, the Dad’s offhanded comment that the guy was very insistent that he wanted to marry his daughter, and soon… it’s just so obvious that he isn’t looking for a wife but for a little girl, which is fucked up. I wonder if the parents would have had a different opinion of the situation if they knew about the secret visits, or if (as I suspect) they already sort of knew about the true nature of the situation and were uncomfortable with it, but were still willing to carry through.
I’m not really sure what to take from this story though. I guess the author is trying to paint the picture that pedophilia has always been pedophilia. Just because it used to be okay for a 9, 10, 11 year old girl to get married doesn’t mean that her partner is any different from the type of person who would today want the same thing.
Having just read the blog, and seeing that most people focused on the arranged marriage part of things, I thought I’d briefly comment as well. In our world, things change so quickly (in a generation) that parents can’t really know what is best for their child in a real way. The reality their child will have to deal with is so different from that of 40 years previous, that its not nearly that black and white. And just in the way it reinforces gender stereotypes, I really don’t think arranged marriages have any place in today’s society.
This was an interesting read. I would not like it if I was told that I was going to be getting married at the age of nine. And that I was going to be a “wife”. Sounds like a lot of her child hood was taken away, she was not going to school any more not going to be able to see her friends, and her toys were taken away. She was thrown into the harsh adult word. Cooking, cleaning, and being pleasant for guest at dinner parties. She says that she is lucky because Mr. Middleton is giving all his company and everything he worked for to her. Well I find that to be just messed up. I guess since she was taken away from her family so young that he was able to teach her a lot about what he does but that’s just it. Due to that she does not get a childhood I do not find this to be a fair trade.
I find I really dislike societies like this. I do not agree with what they do and believe that a child deserves a childhood.
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